I suspect that most non Muslims here on the AO will not know about the above (I didn't until a few months ago), but once you do, it does seem to explain a lot of the problems within Islamic countries and different Islamic groups. In conversation, some Muslims have been unaware of this too.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that other religions or indeed secular societies are perfect. I've been (and still am) very critical of Catholicism, Baptists, born-again Christianity, Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, orthodox Judaism, Hinduism, the caste system in India, and similarly the excesses carried out by some atheists including Stalin and Mao. If you want to say "well other faiths or non faiths do bad things too" may I make a plea that you either put that in another thread, or make that only a small part of your arguments in this thread please?
My goal in this thread is to have an evidence-based debate about the validity or otherwise of the question:
Is Islam fundamentally DIFFERENT from other religions because of traditional beliefs (held for many centuries) that its founder, prophet Mohammed (held out as the role model for all time for all Muslims) personally engaged in very controversial activities (i.e. he had people beheaded, had sex with at least 2 pre-teenage girls, and raped at least one sexual slave, and also possibly had at least one person tortured)?
What is the evidence for such claims?
You might be forgiven for thinking that such controversial claims about the life of Islam's founder are made up by Islam's detractors. Not so: they come from within Islam's traditional holy texts: the Quran, hadith (the reported sayings and teachings of Mohammed) and sira (early biographies of Mohammed).
Of course Mohammed may never have existed (the main written accounts of Mohammed were written many decades after his reported death in 632 AD), and there are similar doubts about the authenticity of the Quran (Islam's holy book) and the hadith. However, it seems that the both the Quran and the hadith became written down in largely stable form by the end of the 9th century (http://ift.tt/1eJseo0, with the Quran probably stabilised before that, but at least 2 decades after Mohammed's death [http://ift.tt/OzoH4r]).
Now of course, it may be that the Quran, hadith and sira contain significant mistakes in them, and are wrong in what they record about Mohammed's actions and views, and in particular with regard to the above controversial actions. If that is so, then the paradox arises: the Quran makes the grandiose claim that it is the perfect, final word of God. if anyone (particularly a Muslim) believes that the Quran and hadith contain such significant errors about Mohammed's actions and views, then surely they must concede that Mohammed was not the prophet and final messenger he claimed to be. If the Quran has severe flaws, why continue to believe in Islam? The only way to continue faith in Mohammed and Allah in such a situation is to believe things so fundamentally different from the main claims of Islam that such faith can no longer be truly said to be Islam, but some other religion?
Given the historical uncertainty about what actually happened, I suggest that the important thing is what the majority of Muslims seem to have believed in the early centuries about Mohammed. Those beliefs seem to be those which made it into the Quran and the hadith. (There are controversies about some of the hadith, but Bukhari's collection is said to be considered by most religious scholars as the most reliable - see http://ift.tt/1eJseo0).
Claim: Mohammed had sex with at least 2 pre-teenage girls - the evidence
Several of Bukhari's hadith confirm the traditional Islamic view that Mohammed married his third wife, Aisha, when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. (See http://ift.tt/1sB9XUe).
For example:
At the time of consummation, Mohammed was believed to be 53 years of age.
Bukhari also relates that Mohammed saw a girl (Umaima bint Sharahil) in a garden with her wet nurse, so clearly a very young, and certainly pre-teenage girl, and "asked" her to marry him, although it sounds more like a command ("Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift"). From the hadith, she seems not to have been too keen on this, but nevertheless the marriage went ahead:
Aside: I don't want to make too much of this, because the evidence is less clear, but let me explain why the claim refers to "at least 2 young girls". Given that both the above marriages where at Mohammed's instigation, and that he had more than 10 wives, plus several concubines and female sexual slaves, it is possible that other instances occurred.
There are other references in the hadith and biographies of Mohammed in which he sees young girls (even on one occasion a baby) and expresses the desire to marry them "when they grow up", eg:
However, the 2 known examples seem enough to justify the claim.
Claim: Mohammed raped at least one woman - the evidence
There are several accounts of early Muslims taking the wives and children of defeated opponents as slaves, and in particular of taking the women (and given the above, possibly girls too) as sexual slaves.
The Quran (verse 4.24) justifies this by referring to sexual slaves as "those whom your right hand possesses" and saying that sex with them is lawful (not prohibited):
According to traditional Islamic accounts, Mohammed himself had sexual slaves, including Rayhana bint Zayd, a Jewish woman whose husband was one of hundreds of Jews beheaded by Mohammed's armies in the Siege of Banu Qurazya. (See http://ift.tt/1sB9VLU).
See also:
Now what is sex with a sexual slave if not rape? Particularly in the case of Rayhana bint Zayd, whose husband had just been beheaded by Mohammed's army. (Another example, although less clear-cut seems to be that Mohammed married Saffiya bint Huyayy when she was 17 or 18, shortly after he had had her Jewish husband Kenana ibn al-Rabi beheaded. Sources: http://ift.tt/1sB9XUf and http://ift.tt/1s6Bue9).
(Aside: although Mohammed married both these young girls, can sex with Aisha and Umaima bint Sharahil have been said to be truly consensual? In each case, the girl is said to have exhibited some reluctance before the marriage. In any case, given that Mohammed is held out as the role model for all time, can young girls be genuinely said to consent to sex?).
Claim: Mohammed had people beheaded - the evidence
According to Ibn Ishaq's sira (biography of Mohammed) and other Muslim historians, upwards of 400 Jewish men (included in this number were any boys who had pubic hair) were beheaded by Mohammed's army (with his approval, and in some accounts Mohammed personally beheaded some of the victims), at the end of the siege of the Jewish Banu Qurazya tribe. This wasn't at the end of a battle in which the tribe had been actively fighting Mohammed's army, but instead they were accused of treason because their leaders had entered into negotiations with Mohammed's Meccan enemies.
Not only were all the men (and boys who had reached puberty) beheaded, but the women and children were enslaved, and their property confiscated by Mohammed's Muslim army.
(Source: http://ift.tt/1pehVAq)
The treatment of the tribe seems exceptionally harsh. Yes, Mohammed and his fellow Muslims were at war, but it was the leaders who had entered into talks with the enemy: it that was treason, why punish the whole tribe, rather than just the leaders?
Claim: Mohammed had people tortured - the evidence (weaker)
The evidence of Mohammed personally ordering torture is not strong on its own, as it comes from Ibn Ishaq's sira (biography of Mohammed), which was criticised by his contemporary, Malik ibn Ana on the grounds that they were based on accounts by sons of Jewish converts.
According to Ibn Ishaq:
However, another account, from Al-Talabari states:
Also, there are various verses in the Quran and hadith which indicate that very cruel punishments are considered acceptable in islam, for example:
Burning people who had not answered the summons to prayer:
A hundred lashes for sex outside marriage
Terrible torture for unbelievers in the afterlife:
Is all this evidence unreliable? If so why, and why did it go unchallenged by Muslims for so many centuries? (Note: in recent years, namely in the 20th and 21st centuries, some Muslim commentators have argued that the early texts were mistaken about Aisha's age, but this seems to be a very recent view in reaction to criticism from non Muslims, and seems contradicted by various other hadith to the effect that Aisha still played with dolls during her marriage to Mohammed).
If the evidence is reliable that such beliefs about Mohammed have been held by most Muslims for centuries, isn't the conclusion that the founder of Islam was a very controversial figure, to say the least?
PS: evidence for the Muslim belief that Mohammed is the role model for all time for Muslims:
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that other religions or indeed secular societies are perfect. I've been (and still am) very critical of Catholicism, Baptists, born-again Christianity, Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, orthodox Judaism, Hinduism, the caste system in India, and similarly the excesses carried out by some atheists including Stalin and Mao. If you want to say "well other faiths or non faiths do bad things too" may I make a plea that you either put that in another thread, or make that only a small part of your arguments in this thread please?
My goal in this thread is to have an evidence-based debate about the validity or otherwise of the question:
Is Islam fundamentally DIFFERENT from other religions because of traditional beliefs (held for many centuries) that its founder, prophet Mohammed (held out as the role model for all time for all Muslims) personally engaged in very controversial activities (i.e. he had people beheaded, had sex with at least 2 pre-teenage girls, and raped at least one sexual slave, and also possibly had at least one person tortured)?
What is the evidence for such claims?
You might be forgiven for thinking that such controversial claims about the life of Islam's founder are made up by Islam's detractors. Not so: they come from within Islam's traditional holy texts: the Quran, hadith (the reported sayings and teachings of Mohammed) and sira (early biographies of Mohammed).
Of course Mohammed may never have existed (the main written accounts of Mohammed were written many decades after his reported death in 632 AD), and there are similar doubts about the authenticity of the Quran (Islam's holy book) and the hadith. However, it seems that the both the Quran and the hadith became written down in largely stable form by the end of the 9th century (http://ift.tt/1eJseo0, with the Quran probably stabilised before that, but at least 2 decades after Mohammed's death [http://ift.tt/OzoH4r]).
Now of course, it may be that the Quran, hadith and sira contain significant mistakes in them, and are wrong in what they record about Mohammed's actions and views, and in particular with regard to the above controversial actions. If that is so, then the paradox arises: the Quran makes the grandiose claim that it is the perfect, final word of God. if anyone (particularly a Muslim) believes that the Quran and hadith contain such significant errors about Mohammed's actions and views, then surely they must concede that Mohammed was not the prophet and final messenger he claimed to be. If the Quran has severe flaws, why continue to believe in Islam? The only way to continue faith in Mohammed and Allah in such a situation is to believe things so fundamentally different from the main claims of Islam that such faith can no longer be truly said to be Islam, but some other religion?
Given the historical uncertainty about what actually happened, I suggest that the important thing is what the majority of Muslims seem to have believed in the early centuries about Mohammed. Those beliefs seem to be those which made it into the Quran and the hadith. (There are controversies about some of the hadith, but Bukhari's collection is said to be considered by most religious scholars as the most reliable - see http://ift.tt/1eJseo0).
Claim: Mohammed had sex with at least 2 pre-teenage girls - the evidence
Several of Bukhari's hadith confirm the traditional Islamic view that Mohammed married his third wife, Aisha, when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. (See http://ift.tt/1sB9XUe).
For example:
Quote:
Sahih Bukhari 5.236. Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years |
At the time of consummation, Mohammed was believed to be 53 years of age.
Bukhari also relates that Mohammed saw a girl (Umaima bint Sharahil) in a garden with her wet nurse, so clearly a very young, and certainly pre-teenage girl, and "asked" her to marry him, although it sounds more like a command ("Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift"). From the hadith, she seems not to have been too keen on this, but nevertheless the marriage went ahead:
Quote:
Narrated Abu Usaid: We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu'man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541). (Source: http://ift.tt/1s6BriC) |
Aside: I don't want to make too much of this, because the evidence is less clear, but let me explain why the claim refers to "at least 2 young girls". Given that both the above marriages where at Mohammed's instigation, and that he had more than 10 wives, plus several concubines and female sexual slaves, it is possible that other instances occurred.
There are other references in the hadith and biographies of Mohammed in which he sees young girls (even on one occasion a baby) and expresses the desire to marry them "when they grow up", eg:
Quote:
Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab (Source: http://ift.tt/1s6BriE ) |
However, the 2 known examples seem enough to justify the claim.
Claim: Mohammed raped at least one woman - the evidence
There are several accounts of early Muslims taking the wives and children of defeated opponents as slaves, and in particular of taking the women (and given the above, possibly girls too) as sexual slaves.
The Quran (verse 4.24) justifies this by referring to sexual slaves as "those whom your right hand possesses" and saying that sex with them is lawful (not prohibited):
Quote:
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. (Source: http://quran.com/4/24) Also: Muhammad made it legal for his men to marry their slaves and the women they captured in war, giving them full marriage rights.[84][85] In addition, according to Muslim theologians, he made it lawful for male masters to have sexual relations with female captives and slaves;[86][87] according to Muhammad Al-Munajjid this is regardless of whether or not the slave woman gives her consent ("...a slave woman does not have the right to refuse her master’s requests unless she has a valid excuse. If she does that she is being disobedient and he has the right to discipline her in whatever manner he thinks is appropriate and is allowed in sharee’ah."). (Source: http://ift.tt/1s6BriG) |
According to traditional Islamic accounts, Mohammed himself had sexual slaves, including Rayhana bint Zayd, a Jewish woman whose husband was one of hundreds of Jews beheaded by Mohammed's armies in the Siege of Banu Qurazya. (See http://ift.tt/1sB9VLU).
See also:
Quote:
Abu ‘Ubaydah said: He had four (concubines): Mariyah, who was the mother of his son Ibraaheem; Rayhaanah; another beautiful slave woman whom he acquired as a prisoner of war; and a slave woman who was given to him by Zaynab bint Jahsh. —Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/114 Muhammad sent a letter to Muqawqis, summoning him to Islam, was answered evasively; but with his answer the ruler of Egypt sent a rich present of a thousand measures of gold, twenty robes of fine cloth, a mule, a she-ass and, as the crown of the gift, two Coptic Christian slave girls escorted by an elderly eunuch. The girls were sisters, Mariyah and Sirin, and both were beautiful, but Mariyah was exceptionally so, and the Prophet marvelled at her beauty. He gave Sirin to Hassan ibn Thabit, and lodged Mariyah in the nearby house where Safiyyah had lived before. —Abu Bakar Sirajuddin, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, LXXI/277-278 (Source: http://ift.tt/1pvzGNh) |
Now what is sex with a sexual slave if not rape? Particularly in the case of Rayhana bint Zayd, whose husband had just been beheaded by Mohammed's army. (Another example, although less clear-cut seems to be that Mohammed married Saffiya bint Huyayy when she was 17 or 18, shortly after he had had her Jewish husband Kenana ibn al-Rabi beheaded. Sources: http://ift.tt/1sB9XUf and http://ift.tt/1s6Bue9).
(Aside: although Mohammed married both these young girls, can sex with Aisha and Umaima bint Sharahil have been said to be truly consensual? In each case, the girl is said to have exhibited some reluctance before the marriage. In any case, given that Mohammed is held out as the role model for all time, can young girls be genuinely said to consent to sex?).
Claim: Mohammed had people beheaded - the evidence
According to Ibn Ishaq's sira (biography of Mohammed) and other Muslim historians, upwards of 400 Jewish men (included in this number were any boys who had pubic hair) were beheaded by Mohammed's army (with his approval, and in some accounts Mohammed personally beheaded some of the victims), at the end of the siege of the Jewish Banu Qurazya tribe. This wasn't at the end of a battle in which the tribe had been actively fighting Mohammed's army, but instead they were accused of treason because their leaders had entered into negotiations with Mohammed's Meccan enemies.
Not only were all the men (and boys who had reached puberty) beheaded, but the women and children were enslaved, and their property confiscated by Mohammed's Muslim army.
(Source: http://ift.tt/1pehVAq)
The treatment of the tribe seems exceptionally harsh. Yes, Mohammed and his fellow Muslims were at war, but it was the leaders who had entered into talks with the enemy: it that was treason, why punish the whole tribe, rather than just the leaders?
Claim: Mohammed had people tortured - the evidence (weaker)
The evidence of Mohammed personally ordering torture is not strong on its own, as it comes from Ibn Ishaq's sira (biography of Mohammed), which was criticised by his contemporary, Malik ibn Ana on the grounds that they were based on accounts by sons of Jewish converts.
According to Ibn Ishaq:
Quote:
Kenana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kenana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kenana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud. (Source: http://ift.tt/1s6Bue9) |
However, another account, from Al-Talabari states:
Quote:
The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him. -- Al-Tabari, Vol. 8, p. 122 (Source: http://ift.tt/1s6Bue9) |
Also, there are various verses in the Quran and hadith which indicate that very cruel punishments are considered acceptable in islam, for example:
Burning people who had not answered the summons to prayer:
Quote:
From Bukhari hadith: Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl." The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses." (Source: http://ift.tt/1sB9Yas) |
A hundred lashes for sex outside marriage
Quote:
Quran 24:2 The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. (Source: http://quran.com/24/2) |
Terrible torture for unbelievers in the afterlife:
Quote:
Quran 22:19 to 22:22 These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water. By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins. And for [striking] them are maces of iron. Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!" (Source: http://quran.com/22/19 to http://quran.com/22/22) |
Is all this evidence unreliable? If so why, and why did it go unchallenged by Muslims for so many centuries? (Note: in recent years, namely in the 20th and 21st centuries, some Muslim commentators have argued that the early texts were mistaken about Aisha's age, but this seems to be a very recent view in reaction to criticism from non Muslims, and seems contradicted by various other hadith to the effect that Aisha still played with dolls during her marriage to Mohammed).
If the evidence is reliable that such beliefs about Mohammed have been held by most Muslims for centuries, isn't the conclusion that the founder of Islam was a very controversial figure, to say the least?
PS: evidence for the Muslim belief that Mohammed is the role model for all time for Muslims:
Quote:
There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. (Source http://quran.com/33/21. See also http://ift.tt/1sB9VM1) |
Islam is DIFFERENT:"role model for all time" Mohammed "beheaded,raped+had child sex"?
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